In this week's episode of the podcast, we dive into the topics of workforce planning and strategic talent management. Joining us today is Christian Ward, a partner at the consultancy firm Influence People, with expertise in strategy and organizational development. Also with us are Anna Carlsson and Emira Blomberg, as we unpack and explore these two key concepts together.
The conversation highlights insights into how we can improve our ability to manage uncertainty by shifting our mindset, working with scenario planning, and building stronger mental resilience. The guests also share concrete tools for making better decisions — both professionally and personally — even in the face of limitations.
Furthermore, the episode explores how companies and organizations can take a proactive approach to uncertainty, from scenario planning to fostering a more adaptable corporate culture that focuses on identifying actual needs. The episode concludes with practical tips on how to develop a more nuanced relationship with uncertainty — and how to use it as a driving force rather than a barrier.
An insightful episode for anyone looking to make better decisions in an unpredictable world!
This episode is in Swedish. A translated transcript is available below.
Transcription:
Anna Carlsson: This time, I’d describe the topic as a bit heavier than the ones we've covered earlier this spring. Maybe not as easy to grasp or explain. We're talking about Workforce Planning – a concept and term that not everyone is familiar with, or understands how to use and what it can bring to an organization. Personally, I've been really interested in this area, and I’d say it’s not just called workforce planning – you might also hear terms like workforce management or strategic talent planning. Each variation brings its own nuance to how the work is approached.
If you work in Talent Acquisition, this is likely something that's become increasingly relevant in recent years – shifting focus from just external recruitment to thinking about how we bring people into the organization in different ways, and understanding who actually delivers the value we need internally. At its core, it’s about creating a plan for your organization based on the competencies and individuals you’ll need in the future, and then ensuring you can deliver on that plan. With a focus on workforce planning, the whole organization takes on a people-centric perspective.
That’s what we’ll be discussing today with Christian Ward from Influence People. He’s a consultant who has worked with this area for many years and really understands what it's about, how it’s done, and which organizations benefit most. And in today’s era of change, we can summarize it like this: many organizations would benefit from prioritizing workforce planning.
So – stay with us through the episode. We'll try to peel back the layers and really get to the core of what this is, what you need to think about, and why it matters.
Anna Carlsson: Welcome to the HR Digitalization Podcast, Christian.
Christian Ward: Thanks so much!
Anna Carlsson: And we also have Emira with us today.
Emira Blomberg: Hi there!
Anna Carlsson: Today, we’re tackling a topic I find incredibly exciting – workforce planning. Or, as we've mentioned, it goes by several names. I've always thought it’s not something many organizations in Sweden really do – but you’ll have to confirm or deny that soon. It’s also something people might not fully understand. So I’m really looking forward to discussing what this actually is and what you all do. But first, Christian, you need to introduce yourself! Who are you?
Christian Ward: I'm Christian Ward, partner at the consultancy Influence People, which is part of New Brand Alliance – an alliance of eleven consulting firms with around 270 consultants in total. I come from one of the larger consulting firms, where I worked for almost 20 years. Then I felt it was time for something new, so I joined this newly started company, Influence People.
Anna Carlsson: How long have you been around?
Christian Ward: We’ve been in business for five years.
Anna Carlsson: And this area – is it something you're specialized in?
Christian Ward: Absolutely. It's one of our main offerings, you could say. We provide different kinds of services and expertise, which often come together in projects like this one.
Anna Carlsson: You’re very focused on people and digitalization, right? How would you describe your work?
Emira Blomberg: Time for the elevator pitch?
Christian Ward: The elevator pitch – right. We work with all aspects of what we call the People Dimension. That includes all the functions and capabilities you need to succeed as a business – and it’s often the part that gets overlooked or under-prioritized.
Anna Carlsson: We can definitely agree with that.
Christian Ward: Yeah.
Emira Blomberg: Absolutely.
Anna Carlsson: And personally – you mentioned your consulting background – but what led you to focus on people-related topics?
Christian Ward: I’ve worked a lot on both strategy projects and large-scale transformation programs, including M&A. But over half of my career – and now even more – has been focused on people topics. That started even back at the big firm. But over time, I felt like the people side wasn’t getting the attention it deserved. Other priorities or CxO-level agendas tended to dominate. When I decided to leave, I thought it was time to go all in on this area.
Anna Carlsson: That’s a pretty bold move, I think.
Christian Ward: Yeah – but it’s gone really well for us.
Anna Carlsson: That’s great. I’m really curious to hear more, because I imagine that since this is such a tough area to work in — and not always seen as a high priority — you must be incredibly dedicated to truly focus on it.
Emira Blomberg: I think one of the main challenges for those trying to get started with this kind of work — or the reason it doesn't get more attention — is that it’s fuzzy. I come from a background in recruitment, and recruitment is very clear and tangible. Everyone has either been through a recruitment process or hired someone themselves, so it’s easy to relate to. But as the landscape grows more complex... There’s a saying: "You don’t have a talent acquisition problem — you have a workforce planning problem." Because we’re dealing with a skills shortage, and bigger capability challenges. And that calls for a more strategic approach. But again, it feels unclear. Where do you even start? It’s hard to grasp or visualize. You kind of know what it’s about, but... That’s what we’re hoping to unpack today — to make it more concrete.
Christian Ward: I think this is a highly relevant topic. It’s something we work on with all of our clients — and more and more frequently. These turn into large-scale initiatives, creating significant value, both monetary and otherwise. So to me, it’s not that vague — but it does have a lot of different dimensions, capabilities, building blocks, and outcomes.
Anna Carlsson: So should we start from the beginning and try to describe what workforce planning actually is — for those who’ve only heard the term? There are probably other names for it, too?
Christian Ward: Definitely. You’ll hear phrases like Strategic Workforce Management — and the emphasis can be on strategic, planning, or optimization. In Swedish, we often say strategisk kompetensförsörjning — strategic talent supply. It’s really about time perspective. You can plan for 20 years, 10 years, 5 years... and then drill down to what you actually want to achieve — and finally all the way down to day-to-day staffing optimization.
Anna Carlsson: So workforce planning can span all those levels?
Christian Ward: It can.
Anna Carlsson: Right.
Christian Ward: If you want a holistic view. But typically, it’s about doing the work to ensure that you have the right skills, in the right place, at the right time, at the right cost — with the right qualifications — to achieve your short- and long-term business goals.
Anna Carlsson: That makes perfect sense! It should be top of mind for every company right now, especially with everything changing — like the rise of AI. Don’t you think?
Christian Ward: Absolutely. It changes the kind of capabilities you need, and the movements you have to make to get them. It also impacts what investments you should or shouldn’t make.
Emira Blomberg: But surely that also affects how accurate you can be in your planning? I mean, that 20-year plan you mentioned — is that even possible anymore, given how fast things are changing, especially with AI?
Christian Ward: Well, if you’re making a major investment that’s supposed to pay off over 20 years, you need to have some kind of talent strategy to support it — at least a framework. It has to be able to evolve, of course, but you still need to ensure that the necessary skills exist, whether internally or externally, and determine the right skill mix — internal staff vs. external resources. Otherwise, companies won't have the confidence to make the investment at all.
Anna Carlsson: But what kind of companies actually have a 20-year plan?
Christian Ward: Usually those in infrastructure-related industries — companies that make large, capital-intensive investments expected to last a long time.
Anna Carlsson: Can you give some examples?
Christian Ward: Sure — major energy companies, for instance. All the big infrastructure organizations. Whenever there’s a large investment with a long time horizon, you need a skills supply strategy to ensure it’s viable. Other industries may work with different timeframes — many CFOs work with 3- to 5-year plans, for example.
Emira Blomberg: I might be jumping ahead here, and we can always circle back if needed — but I sit on the board of a GreenTech company. Speaking of energy — that market is so disruptive right now. It’s incredibly volatile — nearly impossible to predict what’s going to happen next. How do you work with follow-up in that context? You can’t just evaluate once a year and say, “Did it go well?” — or can you?
Christian Ward: You mean how we follow up with our clients?
Emira Blomberg: I’m thinking that setting the plan is just one part of the work — the follow-up has to be part of it too. Like, how did it actually turn out? You need that constant adjustment, right? Have those follow-up processes changed? Are they more frequent now? Given how fast things are evolving — and how constant change has become?
Christian Ward: Yeah, I’d say that applies across industries — not just specific sectors. Of course we follow up more closely now — or at least, our clients do. We work closely with the controlling department and the CFO. We monitor budget, forecasts, and actual outcomes to make sure the transitions are happening. That’s especially true when it comes to business unit leaders — production, sales, and so on. They’re the ones often pushing for this, and we need to be able to measure impact. Not just quantitatively — like cost savings on staffing or increased productivity — but also other value drivers.
Emira Blomberg: KPIs?
Christian Ward: Exactly. KPIs that help you track progress.
Emira Blomberg: And what kind of KPIs do you typically use in workforce planning or workforce management? What are the key ones for you?
Christian Ward: We define them together with each company, and they’re different depending on the department. That’s what makes it unique. One team may not be aiming for high output, but rather delivering on a specific roadmap. Meanwhile, a production team needs clear lead times from sales, so they know what and how much to produce. So they’re measured more on productivity. Others may focus on service volume or margins. There’s usually a push to reduce cost of service too. So you need tight collaboration — even though the teams may have different cultures, ways of working, and skill sets. Building those new interfaces — that’s a big part of what this work is about. And ultimately, it’s about landing in a solid budget.
Anna Carlsson: Wow, this is not your typical HR conversation about competencies. Normally, there’s a process for recruitment — everyone does the same thing. But this sounds incredibly diversified. It’s a critical part of the company’s overall strategy. So if we take, say, the energy sector — when does a company even realize they need to start this? How do you begin such a large initiative?
Christian Ward: I’ll keep the answer a bit broader, actually, because this applies to most industries. Almost every company today is in a position where they need to slow down in one area and accelerate in another. Maybe they need to scale up here, downsize there. There are always transitions happening — and you need a strategy to manage them.
If you’ve got a classic HR department focused on their own HR strategy and services, that’s evolving now. People issues have become broader — it’s no longer just HR’s responsibility. It’s a leadership issue. The whole management team owns it. So the conversation moves from just recruitment or HR processes to a broader workforce strategy.
When we talk about talent acquisition, yes — it’s about hiring. But often you also have external personnel — consultants, contractors, vendors. That’s typically handled in close cooperation with sourcing, which may sit under production or often under the CFO. So you need to make decisions there. And then you have regulatory shifts — like changes in labor leasing laws or new CSR requirements — that affect how you manage external labor. The key is to align it all.
Anna Carlsson: Right. So now we’re talking about more than just employees — it’s the whole ecosystem. How do we, as a company, attract and organize the right talent across all functions?
Christian Ward: Exactly. And that brings us back to the core HR departments — how are we managing recruitment? How are we working with procurement on external hiring? What does that process look like? There are so many new tools available now — having that capability is crucial. Just like comp & ben and having a compelling EVP. Learning and development are also critical — so you don’t end up over-hiring. You need to be able to upskill and place the right people in the right roles at the right time. Traditional HR functions are becoming more valuable — but they might not always be housed in the HR department anymore. Learning, for example, might be more distributed.
Anna Carlsson: That sounds like a big transition. If we look at traditional HR roles and backgrounds — based on recent data from the Centre for Global HRM — around 83% of people in HR come from traditional personnel programs. And those programs don’t include much on digitalization, data, or business acumen. So when they enter an organization and are expected to support this massive transformation... Do you see a difference in HR professionals in organizations that are doing this work? Do they evolve over time? Or how does the collaboration work? Maybe that’s a tricky question.
Christian Ward: I think it’s a bit of both. It’s exciting that this shift is happening — but yes, change brings challenges. You have to learn what’s needed and complement your existing skills. We have to respect the competencies people already bring to the table, but sometimes we also need to shift the HR profile and bring in new skill sets. And that goes for all departments really — no one team has everything, nor should they.
Anna Carlsson: And how do you see it from the top? If this is a new way of thinking — where people are seen as having even greater value in the organization — is there also a shift happening with CEOs, CFOs, and other leaders? Are they gaining a deeper understanding of how to treat individuals when working in this way?
Christian Ward: When you really focus on this area — translating people into actual financial outcomes and helping the company achieve its business goals — then it becomes a strategic issue. And it’s no longer just HR’s responsibility. If anyone in the executive team is going to take ownership, it’s usually the Head of People, Culture, Sustainability, or sometimes Communications. But it really varies, because today, so many functions fall under the umbrella of the Chief People Officer. So it’s hard to define with one single title. As this area evolves, we’re going to see a broader mix of people taking an interest — not just the traditional HR profiles.
Anna Carlsson: That’s actually great. I think we need those perspectives from other parts of the organization.
Christian Ward: Absolutely.
Emira Blomberg: Yeah, and I’m struck by something you said earlier. When you talked about KPIs or setting up a workforce planning roadmap — for R&D or for output, for example — those are really classic business KPIs, not traditional HR metrics. If we’re even going to draw that distinction — which we probably shouldn’t — but often still do. I mean, a typical HR department talks more about turnover rates or sick leave and so on. There’s a bit of a gap here, I think. So in your large projects — who are the actual stakeholders? Because I imagine it’s not just you doing all this work, right?
Christian Ward: No, it’s very much a collaboration with the client and their teams. And you’re absolutely right — traditionally, there’s been too much focus on HR reporting. What we want is to move into HR analytics — combining data in ways that create real insights over time. And ultimately, we want to get to People Analytics — where we combine things like engagement surveys and pulse data with turnover rates and core business KPIs. That’s when it really becomes valuable. So we need all dimensions in place: analytics, systems that support broader processes, and a culture and organization capable of using that insight.
Anna Carlsson: That’s a super interesting point — moving from HR reporting to HR analytics to people analytics. How do you define those three stages?
Christian Ward: For us, HR reporting is about fulfilling reporting requirements — things you need for your annual report or internal/external compliance. HR analytics goes a step further — you’re extracting insights and doing it in real time, ideally combining various data sources within HR. And People Analytics? That’s when you start integrating business data too — and sometimes even external data — to generate actionable insights, enabling quicker decisions and helping you stay on the right track.
Anna Carlsson: I’m glad you define it the same way I do.
Christian Ward: (laughs) Yeah!
Anna Carlsson: I just wanted to check — I haven’t talked about this breakdown in a while. But back to workforce planning: when we talk about KPIs and measurement, it’s part of the broader message that HR needs to step up in analytics. And it seems like this area — metrics, analysis — is hugely important.
Christian Ward: Definitely.
Anna Carlsson: So what kind of challenges do you usually see? We touched on the energy sector earlier. But more broadly — when should a company focus on workforce planning or strategic workforce planning? What kind of problem areas typically trigger that?
Christian Ward: Most of the companies we work with are people-intensive — they have a large workforce. And the challenges vary. Sometimes it’s about AI adoption, digital transformation, or increased competition. Many companies face new players entering the market and stealing market share — and they need to respond fast. That transformation work isn’t slowing down — if anything, it’s accelerating. And the shift in globalization — or perhaps de-globalization — is affecting supply chains and creating new realities companies have to adapt to.
Emira Blomberg: Another ongoing trend is centralization vs. decentralization.
Christian Ward: Yes, absolutely.
Emira Blomberg: So I’m trying to get at this: is workforce planning a centralized process or a decentralized one? The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive, of course. But the term “workforce planning” kind of sounds centralized — like it’s the company making a top-down plan. But in reality, is it something each department handles? Where do you start — top-down or bottom-up?
Christian Ward: It really depends on where the company is starting and what their goals are.
Emira Blomberg: But the trend is moving more toward local accountability, right? At least that’s my sense. We had a long period of centralization as the norm, but now — with AI enabling sharper analysis at a micro level, not just macro — I feel like we’re going more in the local direction. Maybe I’m wrong?
Christian Ward: Yeah, that could be the case. I haven’t seen any studies confirming it, but it could be. There’s always a pull between local versus centralized. And where the decision-making power is today and where the follow-up should be. But in any case, you need to build a capability around this and a process. And sometimes, you build it centrally to then enable it locally. And sometimes, it has already been built, or at least partially, locally. But that's a movement, and everyone has slightly different operational models around it. You might have a really great recruitment process or function in part of the company, with great learning and an important capability in this area. Or a good planning part somewhere else and a good optimization of how you can scale this. And what can we do together, and what can we not? And especially when working with AI, you often have an exploratory part. And then what can you scale to other areas? We do it within a business area, or we do it on a platform, and there we don’t work centrally. Often, it’s central to work with the core capability of rolling out co-pilots and similar, to then find the more domain-specific things. How do we create the most value?
Emira Blomberg: Exactly.
Christian Ward: Now we’re mixing topics a bit here, but...
Emira Blomberg: Yeah. As usual, I think. But I’m thinking, a very clear sign that there’s not a good workforce plan or good workforce planning work is when you're tasked by a hiring manager to deliver some sort of FTE (Full-Time Equivalent) number in some way, without there being any real thought behind a job profile. I’ve worked with recruitment since 2007, both as a consultant and in-house, and I can say that it’s more of an exception than a rule. What’s the saying? It’s more of a rule than an exception that there aren’t job profiles. There are very few times when there’s a well-thought-out job profile and also succession planning. These things don’t really get out there. Or there are so many companies that don’t work the way you describe.
Christian Ward: But some have it in place, and some create it in the moment, so to speak. And often because it’s constantly changing, and sometimes they don’t have control over it. Many have also dismantled their process functions and similar.
Anna Carlsson: I also think about the fact that for workforce planning to succeed and achieve the results you want from it, as you say, it's complex. That’s why we’re trying to turn and twist this around. It’s really about making use of the internal resources you have. It’s about finding the external resources you need, if you don’t have what you need internally or if you’re going through a transformation. So, just as you said at the beginning, it’s about competence development. It’s about finding the talents who can develop into a new role if it’s not available for recruitment or too expensive to recruit. It’s also about strategies for how we’ll work. Is it remote or do we have to be in an office? How does that limit us in our recruitment? It really impacts everything, everything HR, I’d say. It’s learning, it’s recruitment. It’s also about caring about what other resources we have. How should they be treated internally? What’s our employer brand? What do we stand for? Where are we headed? It’s such a vast area, and it must be very exciting to work in.
Christian Ward: Yes, I think so too.
Anna Carlsson: Yeah, this is what I think I want to get to with everything I do, really. To have this, for companies to succeed with their ambitions, goals, and development, and to have the right people in the right place. This is a fantastic area. So, do you have any examples of those who have worked in this field and how they’ve succeeded in changing and what they’ve done?
Christian Ward: Yes, absolutely.
Anna Carlsson: Tell us! What can you share about it?
Christian Ward: There are many different stories, and you have to start somewhere with it, and it starts at different points in time. It might start with the question of how many employees do you have, or how many people work for you. It’s a broader question, and then you just look at that. How many do we have working for us internally and externally, and how do we take care of this, and how do we make sure we have the right person in the right place at the right time at the right cost? Well, then you often have to make big changes to get there. For example, you might need a structure in place. Some companies haven’t even had that kind of system in place either, and then you have to deal with your legacy, and that takes time. For one customer, we worked with their legacy for about three years to get it in order.
Anna Carlsson: Legacy with old structures.
Christian Ward: Old structures.
Anna Carlsson: Old processes.
Christian Ward: Processes and outdated systems that can’t enable this. Maybe an old strategy and an HR strategy, to go from that to having a people strategy to make sure you have the business there, where the businesses are all part of the operation. But now they have different business areas that are crying out for effectiveness to achieve their goals. Then, when you build a joint plan around this, you get a very big puzzle in it. Because that’s where the effect lies, really.
Emira Blomberg: Job architecture. That’s a very concrete thing now. Now we’re getting concrete here. I like that. It’s concrete output, or output, a result of good workforce planning work. Having a job architecture. Other such things—skills mapping. We met a cool system provider down at HR Tech in Amsterdam who had a skills mapping system. So, what more than a job architecture exists when that company has done good workforce planning for this, and this, and this exists?
Christian Ward: Yes, job architecture has a part in it, but they might not have connected it to their LMS or their learning. So if I see that in a company, we see there’s a gap here in a year or two or moving forward. How do I create my journey there? How do I get that planning? And here, new system solutions are coming in that enable this, and they help with some AI support in it, so you can plan and even go through your training, or you can plan your career. I’m applying for this job now so I can take this job later, also well aware that the world is constantly changing.
Anna Carlsson: So, it’s an important component in this to have a good link between the resources, knowing what we will need, and then linking that to what competencies are needed to build this for the future.
Christian Ward: But often, you want the effect earlier too, so you need to connect it to your staffing optimization as well in your everyday operations. Because that way, you get monetary effects during the year too. And employee engagement usually goes up when you know that you can stay and that you can develop as well. Then you avoid going out. You get a different career journey too. If you take care of it the right way.
Emira Blomberg: We’ve talked before about silos, and silos exist within all larger functions. But HR has also had a challenge where Learning & Development doesn’t talk to Recruitment, which doesn’t talk to Compensation & Benefits, and so on. This is a way to... create alignment, basically.
Christian Ward: And collaboration. And then you come to the issue of collaborative skills, which is an important area that often needs to be reinforced, and you need to find new areas and capabilities to collaborate as well.
Emira Blomberg: Since you’re out as a consultant... How much do you work with HR versus other managers? And who are they?
Christian Ward: Well, usually the entire management team is involved in this, so it’s often in the steering group with the management, the CEO as chair, and HR as sponsor. But the effects are often just as big or even bigger in the other areas. So, of course, in some projects, it’s more focused when we build up HR functions, because there are many areas that need to improve to deliver this.
Christian Ward: But in order to make those types of investments, you need to explain the value of it, not just based on research or how it affects well-being or engagement, or thus productivity. The indirect factors that need to be explained aren't always clear, and you need to create that kind of pull. And then we involve others, and we get much greater leverage on it, and then everyone needs to step up and go in the same direction. But you can’t build all the capabilities in one day. So, if we don’t have an architecture where we haven’t built the foundation, then maybe the learning function today works much more with leadership and compliance, but maybe not with these other things. You need to take it in the right steps. You can’t invest everywhere, but as we take the right steps, we build on the others. Then we will hopefully reach the goal.
Anna Carlsson: But I think about patience. That’s...
Christian Ward: It takes time.
Anna Carlsson: It takes time. This is exactly what I want everyone to do. I really want them to start thinking strategically about the people they have. And how are we going to succeed in the future? That’s what we’re talking about.
Christian Ward: Yes.
Anna Carlsson: But companies are not usually known for being that patient. I read a report not long ago about how Swedish companies are much more patient than companies in other countries. But still, about getting investments... that’s something HR often talks about. They don’t get their investments. But what do you think about this patience? You need to build a very clear picture of the results you want to achieve.
Christian Ward: Yes, and a clear strategy. And most of the time, we also need anchoring in the board because it takes time. The people in the management team are often not there for the whole journey either. They change roles now and then, so to have that perseverance, you need to have long-term thinking in it.
Anna Carlsson: But still, I think it’s... If I look at the companies I meet and the HR people I meet, the feeling is that they haven’t really grasped this. That connection between business and people, after all. But you do meet those who have grasped it, right? Or do you help them grasp it?
Christian Ward: It’s a combination. We combine it. They often have the insight into where the company is and where they’re headed, and they often know more than they realize. They just haven’t been given the prerequisites and sometimes struggle to articulate what the strategy is and what the plan is to get there. It’s co-creation in that sense. And yes, sometimes you don’t get everything.
Emira Blomberg: But in the end, it really comes down to the CEO's ability and interest in executing this. I also think HR sometimes gets undeserved criticism for not achieving certain results and so on. But it's really up to... I assume your client is the CEO.
Christian Ward: Usually, it's the CEO and the HR manager who are the closest ones we work with. But of course, SEO is also very important in this. Just like Sifo and business area managers or production managers, and so on. This is where it comes down, for example, in staffing optimization. When you figure out how to optimize your staffing, that's where you get the biggest impact, really.
Emira Blomberg: But I also think it’s very interesting that you say it's a board issue. Because, as I said, I sit on the board of a company with that exact hat on, looking at talent management. I think that's why it's moving. Isn't it also why it's been so slow for us specialists within a certain HR area? We sit there frustrated as recruiters or as learning and development specialists. We’re not working together, we're not achieving what we should. But it's impossible to drive change from the bottom up. Or? Or can you? That's probably where you have to start? What do you do if you don’t have a CEO and management on board with it? What can you do?
Anna Carlsson: I think you change jobs! No, I'm just joking, a bit cynically.
Emira Blomberg: Oh dear, this is an inciting podcast.
Anna Carlsson: No, but I actually... I’ll give an example of why I say that. I had Anna Minderlöw from Fiskars on the podcast, and they think very strategically and work a lot with their capabilities. So I guess we could call it that they work with their workforce planning there, like Fiskars as developers. They manufacture and sell various products, knives, and all different brands. Anyway, her journey was that she got recruited there and felt she couldn’t stay in her previous role because she wasn’t allowed to do those things. You must have this interaction. You must have a brave CEO and a brave HR person, I think, to manage this. Just like you said, we must transform competencies. But it’s difficult to change the CEO's or board's perspective. I think it’s harder. Or at the lower levels, if the CEO doesn’t have this open mindset and understands that people, and our investments in other things, depending on the type of business we’re in, are incredibly important, and are becoming even more important. But if you don’t have that perspective, and someone at a lower level tries to change it, it’s not going to happen unless that voice gets through.
Christian Ward: Yes, or if you can demonstrate results.
Anna Carlsson: You need to be very good at communication and able to talk both in numbers and...
Christian Ward: Yes.
Anna Carlsson: Yes.
Christian Ward: You need to learn some business acumen, quite simply. And that’s an important part of being a business partner. Without that, it’s clear that it’s hard to demonstrate results. So that’s extremely important.
Anna Carlsson: And now back to the somewhat sad part. Many people choose to work with people-related issues because they want to work with humans, not with the data around humans. All these KPIs and costs and opportunities, they just want to work with people. That we might be a bit off in how we actually onboard people into training from the beginning.
Christian Ward: Yes, we recruit people who want to work with more people-related issues but come from different backgrounds. Everything from studying technical physics to behavioral sciences, from HR to economics and management, engineers, bioengineers, or chemists.
Anna Carlsson: All kinds of backgrounds.
Christian Ward: Yes, you need several perspectives to succeed.
Anna Carlsson: Exactly.
Emira Blomberg: There’s probably also a domain knowledge shift now, especially with AI. I think business acumen and communication skills feel super critical. I mean, these are things AI can’t replace for a long time. Or maybe never. Someone has to make the decisions, and someone has to drive the company's agenda and get the message out there. We’ll get better at analysis and data thanks to all our system support and AI’s arrival. But this thing you’re saying, business acumen and communication skills, are crucial skills for the future.
Christian Ward: Change management in this becomes important, and we usually, to make it simple, divide it into three areas. Leading the change, which is what the leadership does, sometimes together with the board. Then we have leading in change, which is the managers, both informal and formal. And then we have the change management itself in programs, projects, initiatives, and so on. Then we have collaboration skills, which often need to happen between different functions.
Emira Blomberg: Very good, because what did you say, change management: leading in change from the bottom up. Change management. Leading in change and...
Christian Ward: Leading change.
Emira Blomberg: Leading change. Great.
Christian Ward: And sometimes we also add collaboration skills between these to achieve the cross-functional collaboration.
Anna Carlsson: For all these competencies. They exist in different places, so the key is to get them to work together and...
Christian Ward: Understand each other. Get a representation of what needs to be done. Be able to integrate knowledge. Reflect on how what you’re doing can be improved.
Anna Carlsson: So I’m thinking back to this. We mentioned a bit that we also need to take care of our technical debt, meaning systems, processes, and data. What’s the optimal situation, and how? How do we get there? Then you must also understand that you need to invest in this because I think it’s interesting that so few understand that with the pace of change we have now, we need to invest much more money in the digital infrastructure in general. Everything from investing in Co-pilot to a new HR system to something like this Learning system that is grounded in understanding the competencies. But are there any... how would you like to see this in organizations to succeed with it?
Christian Ward: You mean, would you like an open check so you could buy whatever systems you want? Or...? No. The investments that are needed should be aligned with your strategy, so you need to link it. It’s your business strategy and business plan, and then you connect it to a people strategy, if you have one. Then you need to understand the specific business areas or functions' requirements, and hopefully, this comes out in a plan. And then, you need to be able to justify these investments based on the debt you have yourself or in other parts of the company. Some have a lot of different systems today, and then you’re back to the classic, getting the data in order. And at the same time, we need to deliver results as well, so it’s tough work to make it happen.
Anna Carlsson: Long, sustained, hard work. I often talk about needing an HR tech strategy that complements, and that’s what we’re talking about. You need a plan for... To achieve this with our HR strategy or people strategy connected to the business strategy, we also need a technical plan for it. Which I call an HR tech strategy.
Christian Ward: We usually include it in the people strategy if we can, and sometimes it’s separate.
Anna Carlsson: And then slowly work with goals, milestones, project management, over several years. How many years are we talking about when working on this? How long?
Emira Blomberg: How long is a piece of string?
Anna Carlsson: How long is a piece of string. Yes, exactly.
Christian Ward: A sprint can take three years to deliver what you want and then see the effects, then the next sprint, another three years.
Anna Carlsson: Sprint, that sounds...
Christian Ward: It depends on the size, of course, and where you are. Sometimes you see effects in a year, sometimes in six months, and usually, you want to see ongoing effects as well. Different types of effects. So, you should combine the short-term with the long-term.
Emira Blomberg: Is that when it comes to methodology? Sprint is one of those methodological terms. Are we talking waterfall projects here or agile structures? What? How do you work?
Christian Ward: Well, every company has slightly different methods. For some, a sprint is a familiar term. For others, it’s a swear word. So, it’s about finding the right approach. Given the culture they have and the competencies, and how they relate between different departments, we find the terms we need to create momentum. And sometimes, it’s toll gates or decision points, sometimes it’s sprints, and some work according to SAFe in IT departments, while others work differently. So, we are pragmatic in finding the methods that best suit and the rituals that need to be in place.
Emira Blomberg: It’s a very agnostic approach. What’s best?
Christian Ward: Yes, it is.
Anna Carlsson: What works.
Christian Ward: Yes, what works for that type of culture.
Emira Blomberg: So it’s really context-dependent. There’s no "best way." Because there was a time when various proponents clashed over these issues, saying "no, this is how we must work." And as you say, some terms almost become swear words, so no side is right. No one has more of a right than anyone else. It depends on the context.
Christian Ward: It depends on the context and the people working in it. In almost every larger program we work in now, we have all these variants. If you have a supplier who is used to working in a certain way and creates the most value, they’ll do it that way. Then you have another department that works in a different way. Maybe they’re a bit Scrum-oriented, like the communications department, for example. Or you have someone else working with their PI planning. Another department may work more with Toll Gates, and we don’t want to just force them to make it work the way we want. We’ve tried to agree sometimes, but you have to find a common approach, and it’s often dependent on planning. You need to be extremely precise to make it work. And then you need to agree on how to make it happen. That’s when I talk about collaboration. That’s where we spend a lot of time figuring out the right collaboration strategy and how to become collaborative, given that we have different cultures sometimes, different behaviors, different rituals, and different departments. We need to find ways that meet our different needs.
Emira Blomberg: But it’s incredibly refreshing to hear that answer, that there’s no "one method to rule them all," but that it’s very context-dependent, and it’s about collaboration and communication. That’s why simple solutions to complex problems are often presented, and sometimes you really need to take the time to understand your context and do that work instead of just adopting or embracing a method that is considered the right one, so to speak.
Christian Ward: Yes, you need some sort of overarching plan or planning, and then sub-plans on level two, three, or four can look a bit different and vary. The further down you go.
Anna Carlsson: It depends on what actions need to be taken, I think. And exactly, how the organization is used to working.
Christian Ward: Yes. And there are also a lot of compliance regulations and other things you need to consider. And with your own governance as well, so you should take that into account. Increased security requirements and so on.
Anna Carlsson: But if you were to think about a few industries, or which ones would benefit most from working on this now? Do you have any thoughts on that? I would like us to work on these issues in this industry. Or do you have any?
Christian Ward: Yes, apart from energy, we have other infrastructure and logistics sectors. Professional services is one where you get a big leverage on this with many employees in the retail sector. Another sector that has a big leverage is in most government-owned companies and authorities.
Anna Carlsson: Yes, that’s what I thought.
Christian Ward: And even larger municipalities and big employers have a significant impact on this. We have the banking and insurance sector, where there's also a relatively big need for it, especially when there are many organizational changes happening continuously. Those are the larger sectors, but I might have forgotten one or more.
Anna Carlsson: But it's good with a few examples. But they all point to the fact that you need a lot of people in your organization and also need to adapt and acquire new skills for what we’re talking about.
Christian Ward: Then there's the entire scale-up sector, if you want to see it as a sector, and it’s a bit different. It’s faster when it comes to decision-making, but harder to forecast needs over time. What roles should we develop? I’ve listened to your podcast before. So, what market?
Emira Blomberg: Exactly. And is workforce planning just for large companies?
Christian Ward: It’s just as important for a scale-up or a small company.
Anna Carlsson: Yes, it is. I think everyone needs a plan. The problem is that we tend to be reactive. We work pretty reactively with little focus on this area in many smaller companies. You might think that it will sort itself out, I don’t know. But it would be useful to have a much more focused approach on where we’re going and how we’re going to get there. Because today’s competencies are limited, especially now when everything is changing so much in areas like digitalization, AI, energy, security, and so on. We really need a better plan here.
Christian Ward: And in a scale-up, large or small, it’s often the case that the board wants to see that you have a plan for who you’re going to hire, and that it’s connected to the business plan. Because that involves costs and, hopefully, revenues. You’re dependent on this plan as part of your business planning or business strategy.
Emira Blomberg: I think that’s why many get stuck at around 50 employees.
Anna Carlsson: 50 people?
Emira Blomberg: Yes, exactly. It’s some kind of magic number. Because I think many scale-ups or startups understand this intuitively. Even if they don’t have the words or terminology for it, they know that you can’t build a company without the right people. Our CEO and founder, for example, sees this as his absolute main task: ensuring that we have a flow of talent and the right competencies in place. But we are 30+ people now, and somewhere in large companies, this becomes absolutely necessary. In big enterprise companies, you have to pull everything together. Isn’t it? It feels like there’s some growing pain somewhere.
Christian Ward: Around 50.
Emira Blomberg: Or somewhere when you start becoming a bit bigger. That’s usually when it becomes a problem, so to speak.
Christian Ward: Yes, absolutely. Then people often say that it’s 100 or sometimes 130, and then it goes upwards. Yes, that’s how it is. You need to build out these functions. Maybe you haven’t built them yet. It’s everything from recruitment to learning to creating this support as well.
Anna Carlsson: Exactly, what costs money, you have to add. Not just those who produce the results.
Christian Ward: Then you can try a bit with crowdsourcing internally sometimes and do it smartly. But then you should also create a culture and organization that enables this, and where people want to do it as well.
Emira Blomberg: Explain crowdsourcing to our listeners.
Christian Ward: Instead of having a department that does it, several individuals can create the capability themselves.
Anna Carlsson: If people contribute in a project form as part of their regular job. They’re involved in different things.
Christian Ward: Yes. We do this in our alliance where we, for example, have our learning function. It’s crowdsourced. So, it’s a give-to-get approach. But we lay out a plan for what types of training we have, and then you’re involved in delivering and creating that training. And then you also get to consume it, and have employees go through it. That way, you get different purposes. And it’s done voluntarily. But you need to have a culture that creates interest in this.
Emira Blomberg: I was just going to say that. But then, it also becomes a lot of HR questions, change management, behavioral change, culture issues.
Anna Carlsson: And then I think about culture, which you didn’t mention as one of the key aspects. We’re talking about change, but it’s really culture that forms the foundation, the platform, or the base that is needed.
Christian Ward: Absolutely. And culture is crucial. This whole thing about centralized and decentralized. I had a client who was global, and they had implemented a new system and a new CEO came in, and he wondered why it wasn’t working. The new system was centralized, and the organization was decentralized, so they were used to working locally all over the world. Culture is extremely important. And often, people want to reach a major shift, sometimes too large of a shift, instead of managing the strengths you have today and working with them. And sometimes, you overuse a strength and end up with a downside because of it.
Emira Blomberg: They say "Culture eats strategy for breakfast," but doesn’t structure and culture eat it for breakfast? I mean, if culture is there, but there’s no structure, like an architecture, then it doesn’t really matter if you have the world’s best culture. Structure eats culture.
Anna Carlsson: And then you won’t get good engagement and results because people will be frustrated, right?
Christian Ward: We usually simply divide almost all the actions we take into cultural or structural categories to achieve a good balance.
Anna Carlsson: Now, I have two last questions. Do you have an opinion on how you think the future HR organization will look? Will it change now with all these changes happening?
Christian Ward: Absolutely. You’ve probably, like me, read tons of studies on how these will look, and their different maturity levels. And of course, it will change. But how? How fast will it change? I think, like many others, that what we have today will need to change, and companies will need to continue investing in these functions because HR’s maturity today is varied. Some believe that HR will become more consultative and eventually be integrated or disappear into the broader business. Someone still needs to manage the basics, so we’ll see how big it gets. It’s like that definition of people issues when it becomes broader and broader.
Anna Carlsson: And how we shift our perspective. And it’s not just a separate issue. Just like how we used to have IT departments, which were in a corner, and now with all this digitalization, digitalization is part of everything you do as a business. And it’s the same with people issues; they need to have a larger role, so that everyone can understand and act on them. But it’s a journey to get there, I think, and we’ll see what happens there. But if someone wants to work on this area...
Anna Carlsson: Or, what advice would you give to the listeners? I’ll put it like this: Do you have any advice during this great transformation? And when people might be frustrated about how we can deliver moving forward? Do you have any practical advice?
Christian Ward: Yes, it’s to make a good current assessment of the conditions and capabilities you have in place today, and then tie that to the business goals and try to concretize the business goals that are there. And then see why the shift is necessary. What is the value of it? And describe it simply. The better you can describe this shift, the more likely you’ll have the chance to implement it.
Anna Carlsson: Simple. It sounds easy, but it’s not easy. We know that. I work with several who are working in this area, so I know how frustrating it can be. But thank you so much for coming here and sharing about this complex area. Have we figured it out now?
Emira Blomberg: No, we haven’t. But I also think that’s the point. Trying to get something very concrete out of this in an hour... It simply can’t be done because it’s too big, and I think it’s okay to land in that.
Christian Ward: Absolutely.
Emira Blomberg: This takes time to understand, to figure out, and to put into practice.
Anna Carlsson: Super interesting! I’m really glad you wanted to visit us.
Christian Ward: A big thank you for having me and having a dialogue with you.
Emira Blomberg: Thank you so much!
